Pop­ulism — what is it real­ly? And when we con­demn it, are we miss­ing the point? We talk with polit­i­cal ana­lyst Thomas Frank about pop­ulism, real and fake. He’s the author of such books as What’s the Mat­ter With Kansas? and Lis­ten, Lib­er­al, among others.

Then, Joe Biden’s record in pro­mot­ing poli­cies that led to mass incar­cer­a­tion of black and brown Amer­i­cans is com­ing under scruti­ny. We play excerpts from a 2016 inter­view we did with his­to­ri­an Don­na Murch about those poli­cies and how cen­trist Democ­rats like Biden joined with racist Repub­li­cans to bring them about.